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How to list married women

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Jim Robson

Hello, When you have a maiden name available, which is preferred? Married or maiden? Thanks for any help, Jim

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colesy

Hello, When you have a maiden name available, which is preferred? Married or maiden? Thanks for any help, Jim

You would always put in the maiden name for married women. It's a good point though, maybe there should be a spot for current last name.. Some women are divorced but keep the married name, others switch back..

I use the maiden name with all my entries.

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Mike Goodstadt

Cosley is quite right. This is not an arbitrary decision nor because most genealogy software setup like this. All documentation is best researched and referenced from the original birth name of any individual. It normally features on certificates and assures that you are getting information on the correct individual.

Names are so fluid, their form changing over the earas and within the lifespan of the individual. So it is best to record the individual's name as first given by the parents and then make each subsequent name change an event in their life history, as indeed that is qwhat they usually are.

There are topics elsewhere in this forum which indicate how to edit the presentation of the full name as currently or typically used by that person or those who knew them. For example check our this one:

http://www.tngforum.us/index.php?showtopic=209

Regards,

Mike

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Jim Robson

Thanks Mike and Cosley, That's kind of what I suspected. Maiden name is essential.

Mike, the example you gave the link to looks great but... I'm not wanting to get as elaborate as creating events for name changes. I hope I'm not just being lazy. Is there consensus in the community on this methodology?

I was also wondering if it would be feasible to put the married name in parenthesizes like this: Mary Jo Smith (Jones) where Jones is the married name and Smith is the maiden name? I've tried some samples and they seem to search OK. The individual comes up on Smith and Jones searches.

Will I get into too much trouble later with Gencom files that are exported or imported while using this method?

I'm starting small with less than 100 individuals so I don't want to go in the wrong direction now while it's manageable. Should I bite the bullet and do the custom event thing?

Thanks for all input. Regards, Jim

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arnold

Jim,

A birth name is mandatory, far more than essential.

I would not confuse her birth name with her married name. IMHO, not only is that bad genealogy, but what do you do if she marries three or four times? Keep all her husbands' surnames? Only the first husband's surname? The current husband's surname?

TNG allows you to search on her married name. Enter her First Name, enter her Gender, and enter Spouse's Last Name.

Arnold

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Jim Robson

Arnold,

I'm just a beginner and I just asked a simple question, but maybe there are no simple answers. One solution is to hack code in three different files and even then I would have to redo it all every time there is an upgrade. And what's more, even then I would not have a solution with a consensus of opinion. On the other end of the spectrum, another person suggests ignoring married names altogether. And yet another suggests that another type of php open source software has the ideal solution. I'm not the only one with this dilemma. Am I to believe that there is no standardization on this issue?

I'm not trying to re-invent genealogy, but I may soon be importing thousands of individuals and I want to get it right... without hacking code. Should I try the PhpGedView software.

Best regards and thanks to all, but I'm really frustrated, Jim Robson

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arnold

Jim,

I've looked around for some beginning website or books, but can find nothing to support that a woman's birth name is the only name used for genealogical purposes.

If for no other reason than to keep track of her in your genealogical program or on your website, her last name cannot disappear or reappear every time she is married, divorced, or remarried. Logistically it becomes a nightmare.

Arnold

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BobA

Jim,

It really can get confusing, and I have received GEDcom files with the names in parens () before...what a nightmare to rectify!

I've used at least 4 desktop genealogy programs, as I'm sure a lot of folks have....in all of the programs that I have used they all keep the maiden name of the female as the primary key so that all events in her life are trackable, as well as it maintains the relationship to her parents and ancestors intact.

In many programs, there are definitions for multiple spouses and ways to record divorces, spousal deaths, etc.....these ARE events in the life of the person and in no way do the genealogy programs alter the maiden name of a female when you record these events. Typically they show up as "alternate spouse" or "Spouse 1, Spouse 2" information. The events also show up in the GEDcoms automatically by being appended to her record as events and this keeps everything straight in her history in both the program and the resultant GEDcom export. You can track her from birth, though multiple marriages/partners, and trace her ancestors easily.

As the other posters have correctly pointed out in logic, if you change her name each time for each life event or append special characters with married names enclosed, you will spend a lot of time editing each record to manually add the married name and you run the real risk of losing track of her ancestry lineage as you add hundreds or thousands of other records...also keep in mind that your exported GEDcom will contain these flaws as well....

What I think you are having a hard time with, if I am reading your thread correctly, is to be able to search easily for a female with her current married name. Is this correct?

If so, then the problem is not on how to record it (which almost everyone would agree as birthname/maiden name and never changes), but how to search for it. I have seen a mod posted in the forums to provide a married name search box under the normal First/Last name search boxes on the main screen but it eludes me at the moment where I saw it...a simple search could uncover it for you.

I can only caution you that the inclusion of () or other such delimiters in a name string makes it a real headache for others that you will send your GEDcom to in the future....as I said, it took a lot of work and manual editing on my part to remove them when I received a 1.5K person GEDcom from a family member. I even attempted to fix with import into both FTM, and Legacy first to try to resolve the problem.....ended up just manually doing it....VERY UGLY! LOL....

Good luck with your decision on how to proceed.

/BobA

P.S. Edited to add - when I don't know the maiden name of a female in a relationship, I create the new family unit (man with known first/last name and married to this famale person) but do not add a last name for her until I can verify a real one. I leave it blank...no question mark, etc. Since it is connected to the male name through the family unit I can track back later once I discover what it is and then add her maiden name. This gives me the next to-do pointer to find her parents....I hope this helps....

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Jim Robson

Hi Bob, I agree the parens () was a bad idea.

My main frustration is that I have made a commitment in time and money into software that hasn't got this fundamental issue resolved. I have been completely satisfied in every way with TNG until I ran into this obstacle. I have worked with various php packages often enough to recognize a good product when I see it and in that regard TNG fills the bill.

The rest of my frustration comes from the fact that I don't know enough about genealogy to know which of the various "workarounds" to adopt for long term workability. I don't know the potential pitfalls of the various "solutions".

I am very reluctant to make file mods even though I have done so on other php packages such as forums and storefronts in the past, mainly because I have run into situations where the unsupported mods get obsoleted in future upgrades and have to be re-engineered for every new revision. Not to mention that when you need support it's hard to convince the support team that your unsupported mod is not part of the problem.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. Any better solution ideas will be warmly welcomed.

Thanks for your input. Regards, Jim

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BobA

Hi Bob, I agree the parens () was a bad idea.

My main frustration is that I have made a commitment in time and money into software that hasn't got this fundamental issue resolved. I have been completely satisfied in every way with TNG until I ran into this obstacle. I have worked with various php packages often enough to recognize a good product when I see it and in that regard TNG fills the bill.

The rest of my frustration comes from the fact that I don't know enough about genealogy to know which of the various "workarounds" to adopt for long term workability. I don't know the potential pitfalls of the various "solutions".

I am very reluctant to make file mods even though I have done so on other php packages such as forums and storefronts in the past, mainly because I have run into situations where the unsupported mods get obsoleted in future upgrades and have to be re-engineered for every new revision. Not to mention that when you need support it's hard to convince the support team that your unsupported mod is not part of the problem.

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. Any better solution ideas will be warmly welcomed.

Thanks for your input. Regards, Jim

Jim,

You are most welcome...always glad to help where I can, and opinions are always free ;-)

I found the link that I mentioned above and seems to cover the topic and do exactly what you need....you can find the link at: http://www.tngforum.us/index.php?s=&sh...ost&p=14477

Code block addition to the script seems minimal, so shouldn't be too difficult to impliment.

I'm thinking of adding it to my website as well as I'm sure other folks on my site have had this problem and just haven't said anything.....

As I was thinking about your comments, it seems to me that there are lots of things that TNG requires to add to it's upgrade list. Better GEDcom support of Level 2 tags is one of them, but it is by far the best program out there...I wouldn't presume to speak for the rest of the TNG'ers, but there are some very high caliber codie types on the boards and they put their combined wisdom into purchasing and supporting TNG, so that makes me sleep a little better at night. Folks far smarter than me are actively working of their own free will to make this a better product for us all....

I've only been around since 6.2, but the modifications to 7.02 were tremendous and very helpful. V8, if on par with the V7 upgrade, will be spectacular....personally, I've questioned my own sanity at purchasing it from time to time as I've sunk a lot of time and resources into making it what I want it to be - but there's the key and my resultant happiness with the program afterall....I'm making my site exactly what I want it to be and I'm not stuck with someone else's idea of how to do it.

OK, I feel better! I'll put the soapbox back now....

So let me know how things work out for you and what you decide to do....and it would be helpful for you to send Darrin a note with your issue as well as post a note in the future request portion of the forum so it doesn't get lost....it just may make it into the next release....

Bon Chance!

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Mike Goodstadt

Great chat and support BobA and I second your comments (the link you inserted is in the topic I suggested).

Jim, your questions are good ones and it is frustrating how names are presented. The solution is clearly NOT to mess up the sequence of data you collate (birth name, religious events, married name, other events) as this represents the life of an individual.

Adding events for each name change IS laborious (I always get behind on this and things like adding sources...). But a name change typically IS an important event to the individual and for the researcher it is vital in the untangling of the family web.

However whilst methodological documentation is an key tool of the genealogist, it is also important for website usability to have coherent presentation of that data. Darrin has in TNG placed his emphasis on creating a great piece of programming first and only then finding the optimum interface though gradual iterations. This may mean that some level of hacking is needed to get the presentation you desire for your data.

On a seperate note it is a shame English speaking cutlures don't follow Spanish ladies who retain a double-barreled maiden surname without a hyphen. History, independence and good coding all in one :) I guess you could always impose this on your database but I would push for real data and here in the forum we can help you recode to get for example:

NAME 'NICKNAME' MARRIEDSURNAME nee MAIDENNAME

I too would love to see tick box display options in the admin of TNG. Darrin if you read this how about it?

All the best,

Mike

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Jim Robson

Bob and Mike, Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I really appreciate your comments. After much deliberation and reflection on your collective inputs, I decided to install Luke's search mod. and go the Events route.

So I bit the bullet and added an event for all of my married women names. Unfortunately... When I went to insert Luke's search mod, I discovered that it won't work on my V.7.02 since the file topmenu.php is now obsolete. Oh well, at least I'll be ready if anyone ever engineers an MNAME mod for V7 :)

For what it's worth, I spent a day working with PHPGedView and found that it is not for me. It is not yet even close to the smooth efficient operation of TheNextGeneration.

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Ken Roy

Bob and Mike, Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I really appreciate your comments. After much deliberation and reflection on your collective inputs, I decided to install Luke's search mod. and go the Events route.

So I bit the bullet and added an event for all of my married women names. Unfortunately... When I went to insert Luke's search mod, I discovered that it won't work on my V.7.02 since the file topmenu.php is now obsolete. Oh well, at least I'll be ready if anyone ever engineers an MNAME mod for V7 :)

For what it's worth, I spent a day working with PHPGedView and found that it is not for me. It is not yet even close to the smooth efficient operation of TheNextGeneration.

Jim,

topmenu.php is not obsolete in TNG 7.0.2. The line numbers provided by Luke in his initial mod might be different, but then it would be different with each template's topmenu.php in the first place.

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Jim Robson

Jim,

topmenu.php is not obsolete in TNG 7.0.2. The line numbers provided by Luke in his initial mod might be different, but then it would be different with each template's topmenu.php in the first place.

Thanks Ken, I now have a nice template and a search field for married names. I was able to use Luke's code after all. It turns out that some topmenu pages allow for searching and others do not. I have the type that does not so I don't need to put any modifications into topmenu.php. I installed the mod into the other two files and it works like a champ. Thanks Luke!!! The Robson Family

And thanks to everyone else, BobA, Mike, Arnold, and Ken for coaching me through this ordeal in my head. Leave it to me to make a mountain out of a mole hill :)

Best regards, Jim Robson

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tmcguire

Jim -

Maybe, as you said, the real problem is your lack of knowledge when it comes to working with gathering genealogical data on your own (not from internet GEDCOM downloads). You might consider spending several days at your local Family History Center to see what the original data looks like. This would give you a more educated viewpoint.

Some of us have been working with collecting our own family histories for more than 40 years. Perhaps we are accustomed to working with the data to such an extent that where you see as a problem, we don't. I believe that several trips to the local Family History Center might be beneficial. One thing that we do learn from genealogy... there are no absolutes!

Regards,

T. McGuire

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WlaKom

'Married name' is very important in Poland, also separate 'Marriage License' and Church marriage'.

I just added 'marname' field to 'tng_people', then modified/added lines to some of the files.

Then I added 'marcplace', 'marcdate' 'marcdatetr' to 'tng_families'.

So far works fine.

See Polhome-genealogy

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dougcouch

Although this thread is about how to list and/or store married names, this post is to make some comments and a request that are only related. This seemed better than a new post, in order to link into these comments. If my comments or request have already been posted, that's fine, but after reading and reading, and linking over to other threads, etc., it seemed easier to simply say what I arrived to say...modified by what I read so far.

1. In keeping with the store maiden convention, and in conjunction with additional alternate names, and with respect to the need to find people according to these other names...

- How information is exported in a GEDCOM would not change, and the ability to find people this way might disppear if using other software, but...rather than store differently, and rather than using an advanced search to manually find people this way: CONSIDER creating within TNG a routine linked into the regular search, which would: (requested)

a) Add to the search results list (whether other results existed or not) a link inquiring if you would like to search for people with that name as a married name. Census and some other records use married name for spouses, not birth name in many if not most cases. Thus, being able to extend the search in this way covers some ground...however, does not find a person with other surnames from marriage or other (such as changing names, legally or by usage).

b) In addition to the above linked routine, another link would inquire if you would like to search for that given name wherever it occurs (already possible, but a link to do it while in the search dialog), showing all Mary Ann's for instance by any and all given names. This is cumbersome, but useful. Incorporated into this routine, a field or fields for entering one or more known or suspected surnames to filter that search by would reduce the size of the results list, and make it more useable.

The advanced search could be used for such things, but is cumbersome to set it up each time. These en route routines would essentially be functioning like common presets to link into the advanced routine with.

[end of request]

2. I noticed the expected in the various threads about married name (i.e.-women who married); however, there are other considerations. People who change their names is common enough, but also there are and have been matriarchal societies where the man takes on or took on the woman's clan name, etc. So there are married men with previous surnames, clan names, etc. That of course leads off into a subject of its own. A checkbox in the results listing to look for royalty titles, subtitles, multiple titles, and of This, de That, etc., looking for a predefined list of these in their appropriate fields as well as name fields for people having a similar name with titles interjected. To a large extent, that departs from married names, and yet can be related when marriages enter into that arena.

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gleehan

Doug,

I've implemented a number of the things you mention in my main page search routine.

It will search by surname or by married (spouse's) name depending on where you enter the search variable. It also searches for alternate spellings of either. It includes the alias field in the given name search. The user can enter his own alternate spellings or check a box to use those that the administrator already thought of. It takes two passes if you want to find people whose married or birth surname has a particular value... that could be fixed with a checkbox. It does not look at gedcom alternate name fields yet, but may in the future. It presents a bit more useful info in the search results than you usually get with the normal search.

Try it a NorthwesternPa.net.

You might try various ways of finding my mother, whose first name was Elizabeth, nickname Bebe, maiden name Shack (ofen spelled Schack), and married name Leehan, often spelled Lehan. Note that the logic is AND... ie enterring Surname=Shack and Married=Leehan is ok (as is just Married=Leehan), but enterring Married=Leehan and Surname=Leehan will not produce a result (unless someone in the database born Leehan also married a Leehan).

Jerry

Although this thread is about how to list and/or store married names, this post is to make some comments and a request that are only related. This seemed better than a new post, in order to link into these comments. If my comments or request have already been posted, that's fine, but after reading and reading, and linking over to other threads, etc., it seemed easier to simply say what I arrived to say...modified by what I read so far.

1. In keeping with the store maiden convention, and in conjunction with additional alternate names, and with respect to the need to find people according to these other names...

- How information is exported in a GEDCOM would not change, and the ability to find people this way might disppear if using other software, but...rather than store differently, and rather than using an advanced search to manually find people this way: CONSIDER creating within TNG a routine linked into the regular search, which would: (requested)

a) Add to the search results list (whether other results existed or not) a link inquiring if you would like to search for people with that name as a married name. Census and some other records use married name for spouses, not birth name in many if not most cases. Thus, being able to extend the search in this way covers some ground...however, does not find a person with other surnames from marriage or other (such as changing names, legally or by usage).

b) In addition to the above linked routine, another link would inquire if you would like to search for that given name wherever it occurs (already possible, but a link to do it while in the search dialog), showing all Mary Ann's for instance by any and all given names. This is cumbersome, but useful. Incorporated into this routine, a field or fields for entering one or more known or suspected surnames to filter that search by would reduce the size of the results list, and make it more useable.

The advanced search could be used for such things, but is cumbersome to set it up each time. These en route routines would essentially be functioning like common presets to link into the advanced routine with.

[end of request]

2. I noticed the expected in the various threads about married name (i.e.-women who married); however, there are other considerations. People who change their names is common enough, but also there are and have been matriarchal societies where the man takes on or took on the woman's clan name, etc. So there are married men with previous surnames, clan names, etc. That of course leads off into a subject of its own. A checkbox in the results listing to look for royalty titles, subtitles, multiple titles, and of This, de That, etc., looking for a predefined list of these in their appropriate fields as well as name fields for people having a similar name with titles interjected. To a large extent, that departs from married names, and yet can be related when marriages enter into that arena.

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Brett

Continuing this thread on, how does one list the female married name where they keep their maiden name, eg do not take the spouse's name?

Thanks

Brett

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Mike Goodstadt

Brett - the default behaviour of genealogy software _is_ to record and display an individual by that person's birth / maiden name. Were you getting at something other than this?

Regards, Mike

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Brett

Brett - the default behaviour of genealogy software _is_ to record and display an individual by that person's birth / maiden name. Were you getting at something other than this?

Regards, Mike

Sorry Mike and forum members, must have been too late in the day.

I somehow convinced myself that on some report (no idea which one) it listed female first name with married name after them. It was this I was supposedly referring to.

My apologies.

Brett

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dougcouch

Continuing this thread on, how does one list the female married name where they keep their maiden name, eg do not take the spouse's name?

Thanks

Brett

I think that's a good consideration to take into account. It would actually be nice to have a radio button in edit, which would default to the standard birth name, but would allow you to override when things are non-standard. Man having maiden, woman keeping maiden, adopted (and sometimes it is known one was adopted but their birth name is not known), etc. It would only override on people you choose, and these nuances could perhaps be displayed only when a surname is non-standard to clarify.

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dougcouch

Doug,

I've implemented a number of the things you mention in my main page search routine... Try it a NorthwesternPa.net...

Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. I did check it out. Some combinations were restricted by Living, etc., but I really like the idea of setting it up that way...although I have no clue how to do it. I lived in Erie just over 50 years ago.

Doug

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Luke

I think that's a good consideration to take into account. It would actually be nice to have a radio button in edit, which would default to the standard birth name, but would allow you to override when things are non-standard. Man having maiden, woman keeping maiden, adopted (and sometimes it is known one was adopted but their birth name is not known), etc. It would only override on people you choose, and these nuances could perhaps be displayed only when a surname is non-standard to clarify.

Hi all,

I think that non-standard behavior is an event in a person's life and should be recorded as an event. My wife is an example, see:

http://www.cousinfolk.net/getperson.php?pe...amp;tree=weerts

She kept her maiden name for ten years and then when we moved she changed it to her married name.

so I created a 'married name' event for our wedding day stating that her name was unchanged ie nonstandard behavior. I then created a 'married name' event for 1992 stating a name change, again non standard behavior.

That way the event is recorded but only for the exceptions.

On the topic of parethesized married name. Storing the same piece of data on the wife's and husband's record breaks a cardinal rule of database management -- no copies of info that can get out of sync. However there might be a way to display the husbands' last name next to the wife's name by modifying the php.

Luke

BTW, Jim, Glad you got my 'married name' mod to work

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MaryGB

Thanks Mike and Cosley, That's kind of what I suspected. Maiden name is essential.

I was also wondering if it would be feasible to put the married name in parenthesizes like this: Mary Jo Smith (Jones) where Jones is the married name and Smith is the maiden name? I've tried some samples and they seem to search OK. The individual comes up on Smith and Jones searches.

Will I get into too much trouble later with Gencom files that are exported or imported while using this method?

Thanks for all input. Regards, Jim

I would like to handle it this way too except that after consulting some genealogy resources, the format should be the maiden name in parenthesis, as Mary Jo (Smith) Jones. Is there a problem with this? I started to do this and the names show ok and I can search by either name.

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