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Gustave

Why Wordpress?

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Gustave

I am in the process of developing my core software that will run my site.  This may be something I share with the broader community at some point in time.  I would like to understand what the core drive is to a TNG/Wordpress integration?

Is it the blogging aspect of Wordpress?  Modern Templates?  Ease of Use?

If you are not comfortable posting in the forums, please send me a personal message. 

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mahesh

Main reason that drove us to WP integration was my complete failure in being able to use customized history template provided in TNG.

The other reason is that our community is not of Christian faith and TNG design, as one would expect, is heavily leaning towards that faith.

Wordpress also allows me to create a cusomized home page.

For the reasons above, we developed  TNG - Wordpress API. This enables us to create customized pages using TNG database, as and where neccessary.

Hope that helps.

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bobbyfamilytree

Blog posts, to be able to write articles about our ancestry would be great. 

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PeterC66

My reason was that WordPress gives me so much more capability - the ability to add in almost any type of content, blogging, and all the functionality that plugins provide. The family history side of what I wanted to present is only a small part, and I still have a long way to go. Also I am only using TNG as a presentation tool from my main recording database - I do not allow anyone else to enter data.

WordPress is also great fun for someone like me (ex IT), with its clever design and multiple contributors, as you can see from the list of technologies I have used. One hint I would add is that the mods functionality in TNG is very handy, and (except for a few cases that it cannot cope with) I use it for all modifications I make to both TNG and WordPress.

 

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HeatherFeuer

While TNG is wonderful for creating and displaying a family tree and all it's data, displaying other content is rather limiting -- especially histories. WordPress provides the ability to present dynamic content in a highly creative way as explained above. To truly appreciate what can be done with a TNG/WordPress integration, I highly recommend having a look at @Martin J Mosley's sites here: Mosley FamiliesThe Derbyshire Hills and The Brampton Communities. Martin has done a remarkable job of incorporating the best of both TNG and WordPress.

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klooster

WordPress is used by some of the most widely recognized brands in the world such as CNN, CBS New York, Harvard Business Review, Boise State University, New York Times, Dole, Glad, Mercedes-Benz and Vogue. Boom.

Think of it this way: If WordPress is good enough for the Library of Congress, government sites in the U.S. and Great Britain, and the U.S. military, it’s probably robust enough for your needs, too.

As of August 2015, WordPress powers nearly one in four sites on the Web – and of all sites that use a CMS, WordPress is the choice of more than 80%. In 2016, WordPress remained the fastest-growing CMS.

There are a lot of other reasons why WordPress websites functions a lot better instead of the old traditional HTML designs of the past. Just to name a few:

  • WordPress is an open source software – free to use, edit and redistribute. That’s why you can easily find its original source codes publicly available.WordPress software is completely free and comes with unlimited validity.
  • You can download it from its official website: Wordpress download
  • WordPress sites are built around a CMS database so they take advantage of many content management system advantages natively that are hard to implement with traditional HTML sites.
  • Today, WordPress is more than a blog publishing platform. Using a true database for storage and dynamically generating Web pages as needed has numerous advantages over static Web pages. 
  • It has a lot of versatility and gives you full flexibility to create any type of website.
  • You don’t have to be a technical genius to learn how to use WordPress. If you know how to edit a Microsoft Word document, then you’ll be able to easily update the content on your WordPress site. Updating pages and/or blog posts on WordPress is literally as easy as editing a Word document.
  • The “Themes” concept allows the entire look of the website to be changed in a single click without any additional programming.
  • There are thousands of freeware “Plugins” that are software modules designed to take care of situations that would require tons of programming time to implement on a regular HTML site.
  • WordPress is incredibly cross-browser compliant.
  • Hundreds of WordPress themes are mobile right out of the box, but I always recommend bringing a quality designer on to help you make the most out of your design.

When people ask me what WordPress can do, I answer: 
 


“Whatever you want it to do.”

And I stand by that statement.

  •  

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Ken Roy

Maybe the question should also be asked as why one would not want to use WordPress.  I don't think I do since most of the problems recently have been related to integrating TNG into Word Press even though the problems are not described that way. 

Making TNG work with WP does not appear to be straight forward, even for those who are not technically challenged.

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theKiwi

I use WordPress and the WordPress-TNG plugin because it allows for the easy visual integration of a TNG site with a non-TNG site - whether you use that non-TNG site for blogging, or photo display or just about anything else you can imagine, since WordPress pretty much can do anything you can imagine.

There is a massive community for support - it's difficult to come up with a problem that you can't immediately find answered in multiple places online.

Especially with integrations that use the plugin, changing the design of your site is usually as simple as activating another WordPress theme, and maybe tweaking some of the TNG CSS to match colours.

Roger

 

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Merv

Hi All,

It is interesting to note the differing opinions on TNG/Wordpress integration.

  • Some say  that it is easy and seamless.
  • Others have found it difficult if not impossible and fraught with compromises.

Regardless of the number who have found it easy, there is a large number that have found it difficult and a concern that shouldn't be ignored.

If one in 4 of websites on the planet are Wordpress, then we could assume that a quarter of TNG users may have tried to integrate at some stage.

On 12/01/2017 at 6:34 PM, Gustave said:

 I would like to understand what the core drive is to a TNG/Wordpress integration?

Although I use the Google Sites platform to host my family history websites, the reasons why users try to integrate TNG with any platform are probably the same

  • they have 1000's of templates to choose from as compared to 16 in TNG
  • is easy to customise these templates ie add menus and gadgets, change page layouts etc through an admin CMS/ It requires difficult template coding with TNG which sometimes involves having to edit multiple files to achieve a singular objective.
  • the  CMS also makes publishing and editing content a breeze/ no content CMS as such in TNG
  • come with a blog by default/ no blog in TNG
  • people who know how to use their CMS, want to stick with what they know/ TNG has only a very basic CMS and requires much higher levels of website building skills to put together even the most basic of custom pages.
  • It's a free program to use (Google sites comes with free hosting as well), although most here would agree that TNG is great value
On 12/01/2017 at 6:34 PM, Gustave said:

I am in the process of developing my core software that will run my site.

If you do manage to put together software that makes integration easy and seamless for everyone, it would be of benefit to many here.

It has also been suggested that a generic TNG/Wordpress template or templates be developed so that there is no need for novices to worry about integration as it would already be done for them. Any further template customisation can be done on through the WP CMS.

I personally would like to see the generic template option explored where by a user could set up numerous but separate family history Wordpress websites, that could all work inconjunction with the one TNG database.

All the best

 

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wingfield

>>It has also been suggested that a generic TNG/Wordpress template or templates be developed so that there is no need for novices to worry about integration as it would already be done for them. Any further template customisation can be done on through the WP CMS.

 

this would be awesome!!

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PapaTango
On 3/26/2018 at 9:01 PM, wingfield said:

>>It has also been suggested that a generic TNG/Wordpress template or templates be developed so that there is no need for novices to worry about integration as it would already be done for them. Any further template customisation can be done on through the WP CMS.  this would be awesome!!

1

It is said that no one plans to fail--they just simply fail to plan.  This is especially true when developing integrations between application platforms, and even in 'simple' single platform developments.  For those who the term "platform" may be unfamiliar, this is meant to be ANY server-side software that is installed at a web hosting service--such as Xenforo and other forums, WordPress, Joomla/Drupal, and a host of other things accessible via an internet domain URL.  This includes TNG.  It would be a wonderful world if everything was OOB (Out of the Box) happiness--but this is rarely the case--and certainly not with WP/TNG bundles.

There are two main methods of combining WP/TNG into a comprehensive genealogical Content Management System [CMS].  Every step must be thought out carefully--and research must be done as to what one will arrive at as an end result--and what their expectations are.  Lots of guides exist for the most common bundle strategy (Dr. Cees Kloosterman's), and secondly the use of a WP plugin (Roger Moffat).  Each offers advantages and limitations--depending on your intended development and the theme intended to be used.  Themes can be devilishly simple--or quite versatile.  As of the time of this posting, the ThemeFusion Avada theme is the most popular WP theme in the world and lends itself elegantly to WP/TNG bundles.  But none of it is simple--and will require some acquired expertise with WP configuration, CSS styling, and a color palette concept that will follow through both WP & TNG.  

The Kloosterman method requires that TNG templates be turned off--and adjustments to TNG style matching accomplished through a TNG file called 'mystyles.css."  By using a browser element inspector, one can find the existing CSS of something in TNG and play with the effects of changes--then commit them to the CSS file.  Not really something for the average user, but then again the average user likely needs to stick with a standalone TNG installation.  Pick a template, and charge full speed ahead...  Otherwise, get on the learning curve and ask questions!

Using the TNG plugin places TNG dynamic pages directly into WP theme structure.  The real advantage here is the ability to use a WP CSS editor such as YellowPencil on any page.  Much easier CSS formatting--but the potential issue is that any formatting is not stored in the native TNG mystyles.css file--but rather in YellowPencil's MySQL/Maria database tables.  But a great positive using that method is the ability to use any of the TNG templates and match CSS in TNG or WP themes to follow a consistent presentation.  After 26 years of innernutz development for fun and profit--I can attest that there are no 'simple' methodologies for anything.  Many mortgage payments have been made by folks who thought that and turned to me to give them what they needed...  😎

Here is where I need to pass out some kudos.  Darrin and a dozen or so dedicated and active TNG community members do a yeoman's job of keeping TNG alive and vibrant in a dynamically and rapidly changing innernutz world of PHP and W3C standards.  The activity of the WordPress world is nothing less than astonishing.  But even with all of that, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing now or within the foreseeable development future that will give one the ability to seamlessly set up a web property.  Period.

I am now developing my fourth iteration of a WP/TNG bundle, this time using Roger's plugin and the Avada theme.  This is the result of 3 months of development & experimentation--and now involves the latest iterations of everything from the server side to WP/TNG.  I again cannot stress enough how important it is to research, plan, and then move to site development.  WP/TNG bundling is not simple, nor do I wish to discourage anyone who is thinking about such a thing.  The benefits are tremendous.  My current active site runs a guestbook, NextGen Pro galleries, a forum, and dozens of articles being published or developed.  All will be ported to the new site.  Great rewards can be had--but one must work for them...

 

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HeatherFeuer

I still say that there is a LOT to be said for using WordPress. And yes, no one solution is right for everyone. However, I would like to point out some extremely well done sites by Martin Mosley:

https://mosleyfamilies.net

https://derbyshirehills.com

https://bramptonoldandnew.com

Martin has done a magnificent job of utilizing the power of a WordPress/TNG integration to present a family and community story.

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Newfloridian

I must admit I have never considered using WordPress (I don't even use Mod Manager!). I am still with TNG 10.1.3 but have edited it to be compatible with PHP 7.2.14 I have developed an extensive family history magazine using historytemplate.php - now running to about 500 article pages (paradoxically, Heather, mainly based on Northamptonshire and Derbyshire!) all of which are w3c valid for TNG's native dialect of xhtml 1.0 transitional. I use template 4 but have customised it so that each branch of the family has its own colour scheme, banner and navigation system. 

I wouldn't want to do it any differently.

This is the landing page for our Northamptonshire branch:

Welcome to the Welland Valley

Alan

 

 

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Kare
22 timer siden, HeatherFeuer skrev:

I still say that there is a LOT to be said for using WordPress. And yes, no one solution is right for everyone

How many TNG users have integrated TNG and WordPress?? My guess is that it is too complicated and time consuming for 95-98 percent of the TNG users...

Integration is for the “nerds”- the 2 percent group, with too much free time - and it is not practical for the rest of the TNG users because it is too technically challenging.

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PapaTango

Indeed Heather!

The possibilities are only limited by the vision, creativity, knowledge, and dedication of the site developer.  Mr. Mosley's sites are elegant and beautiful.  The number of hours to create them are quite substantial.  Let's look for a moment on what was involved:

  • The three sites are built on the Astra theme, using Elementor as the block page builder/editor.  Much customization was done to each template.
  • He is using Roger Moffat's plugin--a bit more complex than Dr. K's header solution.
  • Multiple libraries and resources are drawn from Google API library (cloud) to extend functionality and page creation.
  • A number of additional WP plugin enhancements are being used to create functionality, including CSS editing.

Lots has changed in the Wordpress world from previous versions.  With the later iterations of v4.x, we abandoned certain tried and true methods in favor of hooks and actions.  Although one can still use the classic (think TinyMCE Advanced) HTML editor--block construction and template creation are now becoming the standard--and allows formatting that is difficult at best under conventional HTML.  Mosley uses this to great success.  But builders such as Elementor (or even Gutenberg, BeaverBuilder, Fusion, and others) have a really steep and substantial learning curve.  Making sites look like Mosley's takes a lot of study and practice.

The CSS on his pages is fairly clean--and only a few errors pop up mostly concerning Google resources and recent changes that require reconfiguration of API's on Google consoles.  Sites are a bit slow in the age of finger-snap expectations, as there appears no minification or other compression of files and libraries.  Still stellar...

The average person will work really hard to achieve the same look--and unfortunately likely fall short.  Still, with what can be accomplished bundling can be a route to extensibility that is harder--but not impossible--with TNG alone.  As related by @Newfloridian many can get what they want with the standalone.  That takes quite a bit of work and knowledge as well.

A nice thing is that one can develop a simple and ample standalone TNG site--and later in the game if they wish to extend with WordPress functionality.  The real point is for developers to create what makes them happy...  😍

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Ken Roy
53 minutes ago, Kare said:

How many TNG users have integrated TNG and WordPress?? My guess is that it is too complicated and time consuming for 95-98 percent of the TNG users...

Probably a good guess that most TNG users would consider WordPress (WP) too complicated and time consuming.  It would be interesting to know how many problems are being reported that are not really TNG problems but rather problems due to WordPress integration issues. 

Personally I see no benefit to integrating my site with WP.  On the other hand I have exploited TNG capability to integrate several cemetery and veteran database searches for the area where I grew up.

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fluffy82
8 hours ago, PapaTango said:

The average person will work really hard to achieve the same look--and unfortunately likely fall short.  Still, with what can be accomplished bundling can be a route to extensibility that is harder--but not impossible--with TNG alone.  As related by @Newfloridian many can get what they want with the standalone.  That takes quite a bit of work and knowledge as well.

That is exactly why I use WordPress... I wanted a look of my own, that doesn't look like all hundreds (and thousands) of other TNG websites. I want my site to have non-TNG pages, like blog articles, that are up to the modern standards. Because with all respect and reverence to TNG, the native pages are quite boring and old fashioned. Yes, with a lot of time, effort and knowledge you could turn TNG into whatever you want it to be. But by using WordPress, you can limit the time you spend on it and the knowledge you need. In stead of trying to create something through PHP and jQuery and whatnot, you just add a plugin and *poof*, it's there.

I am going quite far in my "integration" - and going further still. For example, I am not showing the TNG menu bar but my own, so I can decide how and where my visitor surfs. I use extensive mods to change the appearance of the pages to my liking. I now only use the components I want by simply not linking the .php files for the unwanted ones anywhere; I have, for example, no link to "reports" so unless you know that the page exists and you type the address, you'll never get to see it (I will create my own reports on WordPress pages accessing the database directly, like the Top 10 lists on my home page).

I'm still working on three things I wish will one day be possible:

- a total integration of css (--> when you empty the TNG genstyle.css, the pages use the WordPress css, which is fantastic as it can be edited in realtime, without having to test, download the genstyle, edit the genstyle, upload it again. Any changes apply to the whole site, and not only the TNG pages, while TNG pages automatically adopt the WordPress buttons, tables, fonts, etc. The downside is that this works fine for the public site, but not the admin site... I just can't get that to use the WordPress css - probably beause there's a different header/footer... This would be solved if the admin site were displayed as if it were a page of the website in stead of a separate entity)
- a switch on/switch off possibility for the person page; I don't really want to use the timeline tab, for example, and would love to have it removed from the page. I also don't see the use of compact/box/text only pedigrees... They are 3x virtually the same. One would be enough for me.
- I would love to see the tabs in the person page not in tabs, but rather in a vertical menu sidebar...
- I am looking for a way to more easily link a blog entry to a TNG person page; for now, I just use hyperlinks, but at some point I want to be able to create for example a biography of a person, including images and nice lay-out, and show that as part of the person page (a bit like the notes section now, but nicer and more elaborate)

All of this will be possible, it just needs time to cook in my head :)

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PapaTango

I have looked at your site a number of times Fluffy!  The Accelerate Pro theme was on my list of considerations for the new version I am building now...

Very nice work.  WP plugins are a blessing--and can be a curse.  One needs to control the number of them--as almost every one is an opportunity for someone with bad intentions who has gained access to your site to cause mayhem.  Moreover, far too many are bloated, contain kludged PHP spaghetti code, and often have deprecated references and actions based on PHP4 style class constructors.  An excellent plugin for sussing all of this out is PHP Compatibility Checker by WP Engine. 

The admin panel is still stuck a decade in the past--but there are a couple of plugins that can help with things.  I use two solutions--depending upon whether a site is for myself or being developed for a client.  The first is My WP Cus.   It can do front end things as well, but allows you to determine what shows up on the dashboard, and can make serious changes to the menu order.  The second is Ultimate Client Dash , which allows for a number of custom configurations including a more modern theme and changing to custom colors for things to match your front end. 

Both can be used together to great success.  Add the Wider Admin Menu plugin to get a bit of menu breathing room, and you pretty much have a whole new backend and front/back end dash bar...  😎

I don't think that there can ever be a 'total integration' of CSS in the WP/TNG bundle.  Roger's plugin makes getting closer to that concept much easier, as it actually places TNG on to a WP page, instead of simply sandwiching TNG between a WP header/footer as in Dr. K's solution.  With an active WP page display, things like custom sidebars can be added to the TNG page display--and perhaps most importantly--allows the use of real-time visual CSS style editors such as YellowPencil .

Something I recommend to any WP developer (aside from learning how to use your browser's element inspector console) is Query Monitor .  It drops a panel into the front and back side WP admin bar, and monitors everything from page generation times/queries, hooks, scripts, PHP errors, API calls, etcetera.  It can make the difference in knowing what is happening so that one can directly fix something or ask the WP community or plugin/theme developers the right questions!

I note that you are also using Yoast.  Are you on Pro?  I gave up on the older versions a few years ago for too much code bloat, too much overhead, and the constant nagging to buy something else...  ☹️

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fluffy82
1 hour ago, PapaTango said:

The admin panel is still stuck a decade in the past--but there are a couple of plugins that can help with things.  I use two solutions--depending upon whether a site is for myself or being developed for a client.  The first is My WP Cus.   It can do front end things as well, but allows you to determine what shows up on the dashboard, and can make serious changes to the menu order.  The second is Ultimate Client Dash , which allows for a number of custom configurations including a more modern theme and changing to custom colors for things to match your front end. 

When speaking about the admin part, I was actually referring to the TNG admin...

At this point, it looks like this (because all the relevant css code has been removed from genstyle and placed in WordPress, which works for the public pages, but not for the TNG admin, as mentioned).  I'm now looking for a solution to have the WordPress css affect the TNG admin pages as well, without changing the target css (genstyle).

admin.PNG

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fluffy82
1 hour ago, PapaTango said:

I don't think that there can ever be a 'total integration' of CSS in the WP/TNG bundle.  Roger's plugin makes getting closer to that concept much easier, as it actually places TNG on to a WP page, instead of simply sandwiching TNG between a WP header/footer as in Dr. K's solution.  With an active WP page display, things like custom sidebars can be added to the TNG page display--and perhaps most importantly--allows the use of real-time visual CSS style editors such as YellowPencil .

Something I recommend to any WP developer (aside from learning how to use your browser's element inspector console) is Query Monitor .  It drops a panel into the front and back side WP admin bar, and monitors everything from page generation times/queries, hooks, scripts, PHP errors, API calls, etcetera.  It can make the difference in knowing what is happening so that one can directly fix something or ask the WP community or plugin/theme developers the right questions!

I note that you are also using Yoast.  Are you on Pro?  I gave up on the older versions a few years ago for too much code bloat, too much overhead, and the constant nagging to buy something else...  ☹️

My understanding of the Kloosterman method is not that TNG is "sandwiched" between a WP header and footer, but that the TNG header and footer are eliminated and replaced by those of WordPress. Subtle difference :)
I did notice that the live css editor is only available on non-TNG pages. But that's not a problem, I just keep two tabs open. It's much faster than passing through ftp.

I don't recommend the use of sidebars on TNG pages anyway, as most features really need the full width of the screen.

I only use Yoast (non pro) to give me some kind of indication on how my posts are written and how to make them better. But the advise isn't really helpfull so I don't know why I keep it 🙄

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Newfloridian
1 hour ago, fluffy82 said:

I don't recommend the use of sidebars on TNG pages anyway, as most features really need the full width of the screen.

 

I DO use context sensitive sidebars on the "external" pages of my TNG magazine. To me, this is a vital aid to navigate around the 500 or so pages distributed between nine different sections. It was one of the main reasons why I chose template 4 in the first place.  I have eliminated the side bars from the "internal" TNG display pages (which then do display at full screen width) as the default content of the template 4 side bars is duplicated in the dropdown menus. As it happens, it was one of the  contentious issues introduced into "mobile mode" which by default removed the top banner and the side bars.

Alan

 

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HeatherFeuer
17 hours ago, PapaTango said:

Indeed Heather!

The possibilities are only limited by the vision, creativity, knowledge, and dedication of the site developer.  Mr. Mosley's sites are elegant and beautiful.  The number of hours to create them are quite substantial.  Let's look for a moment on what was involved:

  • The three sites are built on the Astra theme, using Elementor as the block page builder/editor.  Much customization was done to each template.
  • He is using Roger Moffat's plugin--a bit more complex than Dr. K's header solution.
  • Multiple libraries and resources are drawn from Google API library (cloud) to extend functionality and page creation.
  • A number of additional WP plugin enhancements are being used to create functionality, including CSS editing.
 

Yes, all three sites are built on the Astra Theme / Elementor Page Builder. However, he is NOT using the TNG plugin. I host those websites and I helped him with integration -- using the Kloosterman method. I don't think he uses anything from the Google API library, however, I do know he uses Toolset and Advanced Custom Fields (ACF) a LOT. Both are WordPress Plugins.

I think the primary reason we like working with a WordPress/TNG integration is that TNG doesn't provide for creating dynamic pages in the way that WordPress does. We see using TNG to document the family tree while using WordPress to tell the family story.  

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fluffy82
53 minutes ago, Newfloridian said:

I DO use context sensitive sidebars on the "external" pages of my TNG magazine. To me, this is a vital aid to navigate around the 500 or so pages distributed between nine different sections. It was one of the main reasons why I chose template 4 in the first place.  I have eliminated the side bars from the "internal" TNG display pages (which then do display at full screen width) as the default content of the template 4 side bars is duplicated in the dropdown menus. As it happens, it was one of the  contentious issues introduced into "mobile mode" which by default removed the top banner and the side bars.

Alan

 

Maybe I should have been more specific. When I say "TNG pages", I mean the pages I use (directly related to the database: person profile, statistics, surnames list, places list,...).
I do not use stories or histories or other pages of that sort. I can imagine that working with side bars. But the ones I use really need full width. I also mention that in for example the statistics page, I prefer the pie chart next to the table rather than below it etc. So some of my pages are already a bit wider than the standard TNG pages. Also, the standard font-size on TNG is 12px, while my site uses 14px (though I prefer 12px, several people told me during the test fase of my website, that it was too small and difficult to read... So I changed it to 14px to accommodate them). Keeping the width of the table at +/- 820px makes most of the cells split over two lines because of space shortage. In the 1200px full width, everything is written on one line.

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Katryne

I'm probably off topic, since everyone here would like to use wordpress, despite its complexity. Sorry, but I don't.

I will not use Wordpress, because I do not like the principle of a blog. Which is for me, just an antichronological sequence of notes.  The visitor can just reach the 5 or so last articles and the previous ones are deep hidden under earth level.

For the local history society, I chose to build 5 different websites (a 6th one is ready to start), with 6 different CMS, to get the best of each world. 6 different CMS with different types of data bases : flat, sqlite, Mysql. With different css organization. Genealogy is the newborn of the bunch. There are links from each website to every other. And I tried to give a similar look to all the sites, so that visitors are not too lost. (Except for TNG, where I found styling difficult. But surely, one day, I will succeed.)

All these sites are connected in some way, I mean besides the links in menu. Pictures and documents are stocked in an album made with CMS Piwigo. And I use these items in the other websites. In the forum and the pages CMS, pictures from the album can be selected from the editor. There are some extracts of the forum on 2 of the others.

 

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Newfloridian
50 minutes ago, Katryne said:

I'm probably off topic, since everyone here would like to use wordpress, despite its complexity. Sorry, but I don't.

 

Hi Katryne

Neither do I (as I indicated in my first post to this thread). I find TNG on its own provides all the simplicity and complexity that I require to create a fully fledged family history website. The one mantra I have always stuck to (and I have been using TNG template 4 for 15 years) is that it is the message which is of paramount importance and not the messenger (ie the website). I would suspect that the majority of my readership couldn't care less that I use a template (let alone which one) - and have probably never heard of The Next Generation Of Site Building. They want a medium which is going to be easy to follow and navigate and importantly be constant for the next time they visit. The actual make up  and appearance of the pages on my site is down to my own personal choice and vanity.

I have yet to find a mechanism that will create the appearance of nine different instantiations of the same base template. 

Alan

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